[TPIN] Good or bad,..here it is

Byron D. Jones reddogremodelers at kc.rr.com
Thu Nov 2 09:27:35 CST 2006 

Ah, we digress.
Funny, I had this conversation a couple of weeks ago with our sax man. In 
his opinion, in jazz (free jazz mostly) anything goes. That isn't to say 
that you plunk out "wrong" notes and try to make them sound right, but these 
folks (I'm not one of them) love to explore the "taboo" notes and play 
dissonants to build solos upon. I wish I could sustain these types of solos, 
but never have been able to do it for more than a phrase at a time. I know 
some folks who can do it all night.
I tend to be more of a melodic player. Jon's solos tend to be normal, 
melodically. He has some players around him in Branson who push the envelope 
(Caldwell, the sax man for one). I have always envied the folks who can 
sustain these "avant garde" solos over a whole chorus or sets of choruses.
Let the flames lap over me!!!
Byron

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jeff Helgesen" <jeff.helgesen at gmail.com>
To: "Byron D. Jones" <reddogremodelers at kc.rr.com>
Cc: <tpin at tpin.okcu.edu>
Sent: Thursday, November 02, 2006 9:18 AM
Subject: Re: Re: [TPIN] Good or bad,..here it is


> Byron:
>
> At the risk of falling far afield of the main topic...
>
> The 11th (4th) scale note ever a vanilla major7 chord is *generally*
> considered an "avoid note" unless it's used as a passing tone.  (It
> forms a tritone with the major 7 in the chord.)
>
> Cb (B natural) in a Fmaj7 would be a #11 if it were a chord tone.
> It's not entirely uncommon but more likely in Chet's case to be a
> chromatic upper/lower neighbor to C that he's laying on to add
> tension.  (I say this without hearing the recording or seeing the
> transcription, so caveat emptor.)
>
> Of course, if the piano player is playing an Fmaj13 (no 11) or an
> explicit Fmaj7#11 or G/F, it could be considered a chord tone.  Hard
> to tell in this case without hearing the recording.  Typically the
> first change of "Four" is a vanilla Fmaj7 (transposed for trumpet).
>
> -- jeff
>
> On 11/2/06, Byron D. Jones <reddogremodelers at kc.rr.com> wrote:
>> The Cflat is the 11th in the chord. It sounds good to me, and relatively
>> normal in jazz.
>> Byron
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Mark Deaton" <mdeaton at ix.netcom.com>
>> To: "'Jeff Helgesen'" <jeff.helgesen at gmail.com>; "'Jon Trimble'"
>> <jontrimble at cox.net>
>> Cc: <tpin at tpin.okcu.edu>
>> Sent: Wednesday, November 01, 2006 7:43 PM
>> Subject: RE: [TPIN] Good or bad,..here it is
>>
>>
>> > Speaking of transcriptions, I've been doing a study of Chet Baker's 
>> > work
>> > recently, and have taken it upon myself to transcribe the solos off his
>> > "Chet Baker in Tokyo" album -- a fantastic piece of work!  I just 
>> > started
>> > working on the first cut, which is Miles Davis' Four.  After the break, 
>> > he
>> > lands squarely on a C-flat whole note over an FM7 chord.  Fascinating!
>> > That's not something I would have thought to do, for sure.  I'd be 
>> > happy
>> > to
>> > share the transcription with anyone who wants a copy when I'm done (I 
>> > can
>> > scan it to a PDF doc and e-mail it).  It should take me another couple 
>> > of
>> > days to wrap it up.  It's a great solo, and he consistently plays...
>> > ahem...
>> > "wrong notes" in places that make my head spin.  What a brilliant 
>> > musician
>> > he was!!
>> >
>> > Mark
>> >
>> > -----Original Message-----
>> > From: tpin-bounces at tpin.okcu.edu [mailto:tpin-bounces at tpin.okcu.edu] On
>> > Behalf Of Jeff Helgesen
>> > Sent: Wednesday, November 01, 2006 6:53 PM
>> > To: Jon Trimble
>> > Cc: tpin at tpin.okcu.edu
>> > Subject: Re: [TPIN] Good or bad,..here it is
>> >
>> > Jon:
>> >
>> > Okay, I'll keep prattling a bit and hope that others will chime in as
>> > well.
>> > All of my comments should be taken with a grain of salt, I'm not an
>> > educator
>> > or even a full-time player anymore, just someone who likes to think 
>> > about
>> > these things in the hopes that I can answer a question once in a blue
>> > moon.
>> > :-)
>> >
>> > "Inside playing" is all about reinforcing chord tones.  The most inside
>> > improvised solos will, more often than not, reinforce (play) chord 
>> > tones
>> > or
>> > inferred chord extensions on the beats.
>> >
>> > Practically speaking, it's almost impossible to play a convincing jazz
>> > solo
>> > following this "rule", so we incorporate things like anticipation/delay 
>> > of
>> > resolution and other devices (e.g., rhythmic devices, quoting tunes or
>> > "cliches" [licks passed along through performance practice], etc.) to 
>> > make
>> > the solo more interesting.
>> >
>> > Alot of this can be absorbed through >>very focused listening<< and
>> >>>transfer to the horn<<.  Loading up the iPod or whatever with Blue
>> > Mitchell is all well and good, but unless you get into the nuts and 
>> > bolts
>> > of
>> > the devices being used (you may be doing this, I'm speaking generally),
>> > you
>> > don't get a whole lot out of this.  It's kind of like trying to learn
>> > about
>> > movie making by watching a movie...you have to focus your observation 
>> > and
>> > then try and generalize what you observe in ways you can apply.
>> >
>> > I hope that doesn't sound more complicated than I mean it to be.  But
>> > you're
>> > basically trying to learn and apply very basic compositional practices 
>> > to
>> > performance on the fly, and it requires some rewiring of the head to do
>> > it.
>> >
>> > As evidenced by the samples you provided, you are already "making the
>> > changes".  This is a good place to be.  At this point, I'd be adopting 
>> > a
>> > sound model (Derek, my mind's eye sees you generalizing a response
>> > already)
>> > and coming up with a plan for trying to do a compare-and-generalize 
>> > plan
>> > for
>> > trying to incorporate what you like from the player you choose.
>> >
>> > I hate to beat a dead horse, but memorization/transcription is a great 
>> > way
>> > to do this.  Your time constraints may make transcription impossible.
>> >
>> > My recommendation would be to pick a tune over which you anticipate 
>> > having
>> > to solo over the next week(s)/month(s), find a solo that represents 
>> > some
>> > techniques you'd like to master, and then we can talk about how you can 
>> > go
>> > about approaching that.  Does "Perdido" fit that bill, and if so, do 
>> > you
>> > have any recordings of players soloing over the tune that you like 
>> > alot?
>> > (It might even be someone you're playing with -- it's okay to steal 
>> > from
>> > your neighbor in this case -- :-] ...)
>> >
>> > Cheers,
>> > Jeff
>> > (happy to have something to contribute for a change...)
>> >
>> > --
>> > Jeff Helgesen
>> > Buy our CD at http://cdbaby.com/cd/jazzmayhem
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>> >
>> >
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>>
>
>
> -- 
> Jeff Helgesen
> Buy our CD at http://cdbaby.com/cd/jazzmayhem

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