[TPIN] Good or bad,..here it is

Mon Nov 6 09:16:52 CST 2006

No flames here buddy...:)  Man, Saxes seem to be the lion when it comes to 
pressing issues/changes.  I just thought it was cause they didn't have as 
much to work out in the way of chops.  Freakin altered dominant scale 
arrgh!!!

HA!!...:)

Jon Trimble

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Byron D. Jones" <reddogremodelers at kc.rr.com>
To: "Jeff Helgesen" <jeff.helgesen at gmail.com>
Cc: <tpin at tpin.okcu.edu>
Sent: Thursday, November 02, 2006 9:27 AM
Subject: Re: Re: [TPIN] Good or bad,..here it is

> Ah, we digress.
> Funny, I had this conversation a couple of weeks ago with our sax man. In 
> his opinion, in jazz (free jazz mostly) anything goes. That isn't to say 
> that you plunk out "wrong" notes and try to make them sound right, but 
> these folks (I'm not one of them) love to explore the "taboo" notes and 
> play dissonants to build solos upon. I wish I could sustain these types of 
> solos, but never have been able to do it for more than a phrase at a time. 
> I know some folks who can do it all night.
> I tend to be more of a melodic player. Jon's solos tend to be normal, 
> melodically. He has some players around him in Branson who push the 
> envelope (Caldwell, the sax man for one). I have always envied the folks 
> who can sustain these "avant garde" solos over a whole chorus or sets of 
> choruses.
> Let the flames lap over me!!!
> Byron
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Jeff Helgesen" <jeff.helgesen at gmail.com>
> To: "Byron D. Jones" <reddogremodelers at kc.rr.com>
> Cc: <tpin at tpin.okcu.edu>
> Sent: Thursday, November 02, 2006 9:18 AM
> Subject: Re: Re: [TPIN] Good or bad,..here it is
>
>
>> Byron:
>>
>> At the risk of falling far afield of the main topic...
>>
>> The 11th (4th) scale note ever a vanilla major7 chord is *generally*
>> considered an "avoid note" unless it's used as a passing tone.  (It
>> forms a tritone with the major 7 in the chord.)
>>
>> Cb (B natural) in a Fmaj7 would be a #11 if it were a chord tone.
>> It's not entirely uncommon but more likely in Chet's case to be a
>> chromatic upper/lower neighbor to C that he's laying on to add
>> tension.  (I say this without hearing the recording or seeing the
>> transcription, so caveat emptor.)
>>
>> Of course, if the piano player is playing an Fmaj13 (no 11) or an
>> explicit Fmaj7#11 or G/F, it could be considered a chord tone.  Hard
>> to tell in this case without hearing the recording.  Typically the
>> first change of "Four" is a vanilla Fmaj7 (transposed for trumpet).
>>
>> -- jeff
>>
>> On 11/2/06, Byron D. Jones <reddogremodelers at kc.rr.com> wrote:
>>> The Cflat is the 11th in the chord. It sounds good to me, and relatively
>>> normal in jazz.
>>> Byron
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Mark Deaton" <mdeaton at ix.netcom.com>
>>> To: "'Jeff Helgesen'" <jeff.helgesen at gmail.com>; "'Jon Trimble'"
>>> <jontrimble at cox.net>
>>> Cc: <tpin at tpin.okcu.edu>
>>> Sent: Wednesday, November 01, 2006 7:43 PM
>>> Subject: RE: [TPIN] Good or bad,..here it is
>>>
>>>
>>> > Speaking of transcriptions, I've been doing a study of Chet Baker's 
>>> > work
>>> > recently, and have taken it upon myself to transcribe the solos off 
>>> > his
>>> > "Chet Baker in Tokyo" album -- a fantastic piece of work!  I just 
>>> > started
>>> > working on the first cut, which is Miles Davis' Four.  After the 
>>> > break, he
>>> > lands squarely on a C-flat whole note over an FM7 chord.  Fascinating!
>>> > That's not something I would have thought to do, for sure.  I'd be 
>>> > happy
>>> > to
>>> > share the transcription with anyone who wants a copy when I'm done (I 
>>> > can
>>> > scan it to a PDF doc and e-mail it).  It should take me another couple 
>>> > of
>>> > days to wrap it up.  It's a great solo, and he consistently plays...
>>> > ahem...
>>> > "wrong notes" in places that make my head spin.  What a brilliant 
>>> > musician
>>> > he was!!
>>> >
>>> > Mark
>>> >
>>> > -----Original Message-----
>>> > From: tpin-bounces at tpin.okcu.edu [mailto:tpin-bounces at tpin.okcu.edu] 
>>> > On
>>> > Behalf Of Jeff Helgesen
>>> > Sent: Wednesday, November 01, 2006 6:53 PM
>>> > To: Jon Trimble
>>> > Cc: tpin at tpin.okcu.edu
>>> > Subject: Re: [TPIN] Good or bad,..here it is
>>> >
>>> > Jon:
>>> >
>>> > Okay, I'll keep prattling a bit and hope that others will chime in as
>>> > well.
>>> > All of my comments should be taken with a grain of salt, I'm not an
>>> > educator
>>> > or even a full-time player anymore, just someone who likes to think 
>>> > about
>>> > these things in the hopes that I can answer a question once in a blue
>>> > moon.
>>> > :-)
>>> >
>>> > "Inside playing" is all about reinforcing chord tones.  The most 
>>> > inside
>>> > improvised solos will, more often than not, reinforce (play) chord 
>>> > tones
>>> > or
>>> > inferred chord extensions on the beats.
>>> >
>>> > Practically speaking, it's almost impossible to play a convincing jazz
>>> > solo
>>> > following this "rule", so we incorporate things like 
>>> > anticipation/delay of
>>> > resolution and other devices (e.g., rhythmic devices, quoting tunes or
>>> > "cliches" [licks passed along through performance practice], etc.) to 
>>> > make
>>> > the solo more interesting.
>>> >
>>> > Alot of this can be absorbed through >>very focused listening<< and
>>> >>>transfer to the horn<<.  Loading up the iPod or whatever with Blue
>>> > Mitchell is all well and good, but unless you get into the nuts and 
>>> > bolts
>>> > of
>>> > the devices being used (you may be doing this, I'm speaking 
>>> > generally),
>>> > you
>>> > don't get a whole lot out of this.  It's kind of like trying to learn
>>> > about
>>> > movie making by watching a movie...you have to focus your observation 
>>> > and
>>> > then try and generalize what you observe in ways you can apply.
>>> >
>>> > I hope that doesn't sound more complicated than I mean it to be.  But
>>> > you're
>>> > basically trying to learn and apply very basic compositional practices 
>>> > to
>>> > performance on the fly, and it requires some rewiring of the head to 
>>> > do
>>> > it.
>>> >
>>> > As evidenced by the samples you provided, you are already "making the
>>> > changes".  This is a good place to be.  At this point, I'd be adopting 
>>> > a
>>> > sound model (Derek, my mind's eye sees you generalizing a response
>>> > already)
>>> > and coming up with a plan for trying to do a compare-and-generalize 
>>> > plan
>>> > for
>>> > trying to incorporate what you like from the player you choose.
>>> >
>>> > I hate to beat a dead horse, but memorization/transcription is a great 
>>> > way
>>> > to do this.  Your time constraints may make transcription impossible.
>>> >
>>> > My recommendation would be to pick a tune over which you anticipate 
>>> > having
>>> > to solo over the next week(s)/month(s), find a solo that represents 
>>> > some
>>> > techniques you'd like to master, and then we can talk about how you 
>>> > can go
>>> > about approaching that.  Does "Perdido" fit that bill, and if so, do 
>>> > you
>>> > have any recordings of players soloing over the tune that you like 
>>> > alot?
>>> > (It might even be someone you're playing with -- it's okay to steal 
>>> > from
>>> > your neighbor in this case -- :-] ...)
>>> >
>>> > Cheers,
>>> > Jeff
>>> > (happy to have something to contribute for a change...)
>>> >
>>> > --
>>> > Jeff Helgesen
>>> > Buy our CD at http://cdbaby.com/cd/jazzmayhem
>>> > _______________________________________________
>>> > TPIN mailing list
>>> > TPIN at tpin.okcu.edu
>>> > http://tpin.okcu.edu/mailman/listinfo/tpin
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > _______________________________________________
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>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> -- 
>> Jeff Helgesen
>> Buy our CD at http://cdbaby.com/cd/jazzmayhem
>
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