[TPIN] Re: Monette/Engineering/I wanna know

[Dr. Albert L. Lilly III]

Glenn,

Thank you for your reply.

I do not claim you are an idiot.  I don't mean to sound as if anyone 
on this subject is.  David is a VERY polarizing person, and he 
maintains an air that some find deeply offending, and others can work 
with by simply listening to him, agreeing when he sounds right, 
disagreeing when he goes off.  I have known him for nearly 25 years, 
and in that time, have seen the good and bad in the man. I  realize 
he has weaknesses, and I realize he has his faults.  Just like I do.

What I hate is that I KNOW that David meant this horn as a good 
thing, a work of art in tribute to the people of New Orleans, to one 
man, and to the entire situation as it unfolded on the Gulf Coast. 
Did he do the right thing?  Only time will tell.  History if full of 
artists and composers who have crafted in "their" art works that 
either illustrate the suffering, prolong  the agony, or in some 
instances, hope to bring some relief to the suffering.  Look at 
Goya's "The Third of May". Handel's "Messiah", and Picasso's 
"Guernica" as examples of compassionate, caring artists whose works 
are looked upon as masterpieces later, but were simply inflammatory 
images (in the case of Goya and Picasso), or written solely as a 
charity work (Handel).  Handel didn't make much, if anything, off the 
initial performance of the Messiah, but it's popularity didn't hurt 
him, and likely advanced him further in his later life.  Goya didn't 
make much off the Third of May, but the popularity of the image help 
his career immensely.  Picasso was Picasso; like Monette, he for the 
most part could care less about what the public thought.  He made his 
gestures, had his beliefs, created his work.

I think of David Monette as part artist, part maker, part designer, 
and part wizard.  This trumpet is a work of art in tribute to those 
affected by Katrina, and he chose one man to symbolize that for the 
entire region.  He made the horn, Tami Dean spent huge numbers of 
hours working on the cuts and the decorative sections, he designed 
the double bell trumpet (no small feat in that those horns typically 
take 10 times the man hours of a regular Monette horn to get right. 
This is why, until this horn, Dave had decided to never make them 
again.  They are a labor of love, and challenging to balance and to 
make play well.)  Getting those horn to play well (I trust you've 
linked from the Monette page to the video online) is another feat, 
and that to me is where the wizard comes in.  Dave just has a touch; 
Bach had it, Benge had it, Schilke had it, Blackburn has it, Dave has 
it, Roy Lawler has it.  What is the it?  That magical part of their 
being where they just "know" certain things.  Call it an extra level 
of perception, call it whatever....they just have it.

So, I look at Dave's horn here and see an artist.  I look at them in 
total and see a confused, yet practical artist.  If I am going to 
make trumpets that take all of this effort, I need help, I have to 
charge a substantial premium for the work, and I sometimes create 
enemies and ruffle the feathers of some because of my "artiste" 
attitude, which comes out for Dave at the wrong moment.   He comes to 
ITG, but demands a quiet place to trial his stuff.  Makes perfect 
sense to me.  If you've been to ITG or NTC, it is sometimes painful 
to be around the exhibits.  I often go when a very popular event is 
happening, to avoid the crowds.  Sure, I miss something, but I also 
keep my hearing!!!

He is rude with those interested in his ideas, you say.  Sure he is. 
We all are when we are criticized constantly.  Think how you would 
feel if someone criticized you every day, the copied your ideas and 
sold them.  There have been MANY changes in trumpet manufacturing in 
the past 20 years done as a copy of the Monette ideas.  No one has 
copied the Prana instrument idea yet, but I have no doubt that there 
are people trying.  Others have copied the heavy horns.  Nothing 
wrong with that.  But, like artists of the past and current, copying 
the LOOK of something is not copying the function of something.  That 
is where Dave the designer, Dave the acoustical genius, Dave the 
wizard makes changes that make his instrument special.

David also has a perception regarding his clientele, and he prefers 
to sell to those people he knows will buy his horns and cherish them. 
He takes it very hard when (though he'd never admit it) he sees 
people leave his instruments for other makes.  I've heard the 
disappointment in his voice.  He cannot afford to compete with the 
big makers in free instruments and endorsement contracts.  He chooses 
to work with a select few.  I have been the recipient of many free 
mouthpieces, in an attempt to fix or address issues with my diabetes 
in the past two years.  Does anyone ever hear about that?  Doubtful. 
I am probably insulting David with what I write here, and I am taking 
that chance in the hopes that someone (anyone) will gain a little 
more insight into the man and his work.  If it costs me my 
relationship with him by posting this, I can assure you that I 
believe it was worth it to defend him as my friend and someone I feel 
I understand better than others.

If you can see the Dave I know, you would see someone who is certain 
about his abilities, but yet uncertain (and defensive) about his art. 
As almost all artist are at one time or another.

Glenn, have you ever written a paper, thought it a great piece of 
work, turned it in to a class only to have the teacher rip it to 
shreds and give you a very low score on it?  Do you remember the hurt 
and embarrassment that you felt from that (I know I do mine, and I am 
hoping we've had a similar experience in the past).  That hurt is the 
same hurt that a creative artist and designer like Monette feels when 
people reject his ideas.  Pile the negative comments up, and after a 
short time, you become extremely defensive.  Last year at ITG, Dave 
did a presentation that was very ood from all accounts.  If you llook 
at that presentation in the light of him for the first time feeling 
he was speaking among friends, or at least in a tolerant, listening 
audience, it may help you to understand the man a bit better.

I'm not saying all Dave has done is right, or fair, or even 
justified.  I am just saying I see a lot more about Dave than many 
know or perhaps even care to know.  I see a guy whose ideas are 
different.  Some feel threatened by the difference.  Some espouse the 
difference.  Likely most are somewhere in between for most things, 
but with Monette, no.  He is a polarizing personality, as is 
evidenced here.

I don't claim to know him as well as others, and much of this I have 
gained through years of friendship and visiting with others who know 
David well (like Charles Gorham).  I do know that he has changed 
trumpet design and trumpet manufacturing in America and the world as 
a whole.  I also know that such claims are difficult for some to 
accept.  There are really no NEW ideas in our world, only a NEW 
INTERPRETATION of those ideas with a few twists that add to or delete 
from the original.  With that in mind, Dave in my opinion has made a 
huge jump with the twists and turns he has added and subtracted from 
the original concept.

I hope that the artist/engineer/designer/wizard ideas make some 
sense.  I don't claim Dave to be perfect.  I don't say he is without 
fault.  I just try and see him in a different light than most, 
evidently, and that works for me.

You might ask; has David ever angered and insulted me?  Of course. 
Did I let him know and bark right back at him?  Yes.  And, did it 
change the level of respect we both had for each other.  Undoubtedly, 
and in a positive way.

Glenn, I hope this make sense, and at least answers some of your 
questions about my position.  If you saw a good friend constantly 
attacked in a forum, regardless of his growth and "mellowing" over 
the years (and he has mellowed some), you'd likely respond as I do.

I have the utmost respect for him, but that doesn't mean I always 
agree with him, his actions, or his words.  I question this horn too, 
but when I look at it as I suspect that David does, I know that no 
malice or ill will was intended by this tribute trumpet.  No one 
works that hard to create the stir he knew he'd create by making this 
horn unless they are truly believing it is the right thing to do.

You're right about me not understanding you.  I simply sensed that 
you had no interest in the subject, and that you held your beliefs, 
which were your beliefs regardless of what I say.  I apologize if 
that assumption was unfair and unrealistic.

But, isn't that the same assumption you've made with Dave?

AL


At 1:12 PM -0400 9/2/07, Glenn Bengry in an electronic message 
offered the following:
>Al,
>
>       My post below is a series of questions and a statement that 
>would say that it is pretty difficult to say what the design history 
>of the last 150 years is to even have a discussion.  You are right 
>about the fact that it probably isn't really a useful discussion 
>regarding the engineering.   Dave knows plenty.  To discount all 
>those that have come before and their knowledge and developments is 
>to do a disservice to the discussion.
>
>I'm not sure how you can portend to know what my beliefs are if you 
>haven't sat down and talked with me all day for a coupla weeks.  If 
>you think you can tell what all my beliefs are from the little that 
>I've said here, then you underestimate me.
>
>    
>      If you say you can blow me out of the water, have at me.  Why 
>would you think that my eyes are closed, my mind is shut, my ears 
>are silent(well they are actually silent.  you got me there)and that 
>the belief has set in?
>
>      I wanna learn as bad as anybody out there.  If you can show me 
>any errors in my perception or educate me on stuff I dont' know, and 
>handle any questions I have or any questioning of the ideas 
>presented, then let's go.  I'm willing to change my position on 
>anything if I have good reason to do so.
>
>I'm all EAR(I only have one, sorry.  but it works)
>
>
>glenn, just because I'm an idiot doesn't mean I can't learn, bengry
>
>x
>
>x
>
>
>
>
>>
>>  At 12:37 PM -0400 9/2/07, Glenn Bengry in an electronic message
>>  offered the following:
>>  > >
>>  >> In my conversations with Dave Monette I can say without 
>>qualification that
>>  >> he believes in himself and walks his talk.
>>  >
>>  >
>>  >
>>  >What do you mean "he walks his talk?"
>>  >
>>  >
>>  >
>>  > Is his direction in
>>  >> re-engineering the trumpet correct? Any engineer knows that 
>>there are trade
>>  >> offs. Without people like Monette pushing the envelope on 
>>engineering, the
>>  >> only direction we have prevailing in trumpet construction is 
>>mass production
>>  >> in Asia.
>>  >
>>  >
>>  >
>>  >
>>  >How do you know what engineering is going on in trumpet construction?
>>  >
>>  > Are you saying that all the makers and individuals out there are
>>  >not making discoveries in the design and engineering? do you even
>>  >know who all the designers are? there are a few guys out there
>>  >still alive and designing that personally knew the Besson family,
>>  >Vincent Bach, Bill Tottle, Elden Benge, Renold Schilke, Gene
>>  >Pilzcuk,etc and still designs with Doc Severinson and Zig Kanstul.
>>  >He forgot more than Dave Monette will ever know. These guys didn't
>>  >tell the world their secrets. You would never know what
>>  >revolutionary discoveries they made, are making or are
>>  >incorporating into their instruments.Many of them are things you can't see.
>>  >
>>  >
>>  >
>>  >If you are convinced that there are no design and engineering
>>  >developments going on, then perhaps Dave has succeeded with his
>>  >marketing strategy.
>>  >
>>  >
>>  >glenn
>>  >
>>
>>  I had prepared a huge reply blowing you out of the water on this
>>  subject Glenn, but I can see that no reply I would possibly make
>>  would in any way compete with the beliefs you hold regarding this
>>  subject, and will refrain from further replies. When the eyes go
>>  shut, and the mind closed, the ears go silent, and the belief is set,
>>  no amount of discussion will change an opinion, and no one on TPIN
>>  benefits from that continued spiral downward. I can see both sides
>>  of the coin in this consideration. I know Dave's shortcomings. I
>>  know my own.
>>
>>  Continuing this discussion will only precipitate more of 
>>mine....so I will not.
>  >
>>  AL
>>
>>  --
>>  ___________________________________________________________
>>  Dr. Albert L. Lilly III - mailto:albert.lilly at sbcglobal.net
>>  Trumpeter, Brass Clinician, Arranger and Composer
>  > Calendar Editor, International Trumpet Guild http://www.trumpetguild.org
>>  Endorsing Scholastic Educator, Vic Firth Incorporated, 
>>http://www.vicfirth.com
>>  Lilly Music Services - http://www.lillymusic.org
>>  Personal home page - http://www.lillymusic.org/alilly.html
>>  ___________________________________________________________


-- 
___________________________________________________________
Dr. Albert L. Lilly III - mailto:albert.lilly at sbcglobal.net
Trumpeter, Brass Clinician, Arranger and Composer  
Calendar Editor, International Trumpet Guild  http://www.trumpetguild.org 
Endorsing Scholastic Educator, Vic Firth Incorporated, http://www.vicfirth.com
Lilly Music Services -  http://www.lillymusic.org
Personal home page - http://www.lillymusic.org/alilly.html
___________________________________________________________